How Does Progress compare

[bboymarko]

Hi

I have been trying to look for Progress comparisons lately.How does progress 9.1D using the GUI compare to MSSQL2005 and Oracle with .NET front ends and Open edge 10. I am not interested in knowing that it is niche and the amount of jobs in it but technically. But issues of compatibility and strengths of databases and languages.

Any rough license cost would help for a company of about 100 people with 3 developers.


I know you would have to know the environment etc but any rough help would be appreicated.

 

[tamhas]

Any question like this is really too vague to have a real answer. For starters, focusing on license costs is misplaced .. there are many factors which go into total cost of ownership including the cost of doing the development in the first place, which is heavily influenced by productivity issues, ease of modifications, maintenance, cost of new versions, cost of personnel to manage the application, etc. And, even all of that can be dwarfed by "opportunity" costs, i.e., how well the application helps the business to succeed and that might come as much from companion products as it does from the core database and language products.

Moreover, there is a great deal that can vary ... not the least of which is that you could have .NET front ends with the Progress ABL server-side logic and database.

And, if you have some preferred reporting tool like Crystal or Actuate, then that could be the same for both as well.

Progress is consistently rated lowest in TCO, in large part because of the productivity of the development tools and the minimal effort required to administer the database.

 

[bboymarko]

What if it was initial costs?
How would you sell me on a technical aspect the above mentioned databases over progress.

 

[tamhas]

I don't know the licensing costs of the other products so I don't know what you might think about that, but if it was the only thing you were going to pay attention to, then you would be the kind of buyer who buys a car based on the fins or buys a bargain for the low price even though it isn't something you actually needed or wanted.

The only sensible way to look at any tool like this is to compare all the costs and benefits. If you save 20% of a $30,000 purchase price and then it takes three developers an extra year to develop the system, have you saved money? If one requires a full time DBA and the other requires only 10% of one of the programmer's time, how long before that difference in purchase price is gone. If one allows a rapid and cost effective response to a changed business condition and that puts you ahead of the competition, what is that worth?

 

[rhi]

I've recently gotten out of the Progress world after 10 years, and have gone full time Oracle. My advice, RUN AS FAR AWAY FROM PROGRESS AS YOU CAN!!!!!. It's a horrible database, feature wise, and it is 100% proprietary. If you plan to do anything on an enterprise level, and ever even think you might intergrate into other non-Progress apps, you will be ready to shoot yourself.

These bozos in this forum who love Progress spend more time NOT answering questions, and do things like Thamas just did, which is basically tell you your not asking the right question, and try to make you feel stupid by doing a lot of talking, while not really answering what you asked.

I come back here once in a while to try and save those not quite yet commited to Progress. I too once thought Progress was the best - when it was the only database/language I knew about.

I think this is what you're looking for.
http://psdn.progress.com/library/competitive_info/reports/oracle9i_competitive_report.pdf

 

[tamhas]

Apparently, one of the things that one learns in the Oracle world is how to be rude.

What are you comparing, Progress 7.3 with the latest Oracle? Do you have any idea what is in 10.1B? Oracle may well have some of those capabilities beat ... they certainly have spent enough money that they should have accomplished something, but I have trouble thinking that there are very many sites that will ever run up against the limits of 10.1B.

Do I want more? Sure, but I am also very appreciative with what I've got. Ever looked at any of the total cost of ownership figures? It is amazing how little DBA effort is required with Progress.

Oh, and your link doesn't work.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

rhi,

I don't like getting into these discussion but the last thing I'll say is -

For one I can't remember a single time when you've ever been useful and answered any questions.

And the last time we spoke you made less sense then Martin on one of his good days.

You still haven't made any argument that makes sense or even stuck with it.


I certainly don't see any problem learning SQL and working with other databases.

And we've been doing alot of work with SQL with Progress these days. Personally I've also done odd PHP and MySQL, pays less

I don't have much experience with Oracle but I have read quite alot about it working with SQL (hard not to), it certainly has alot in common and a common glossary with Progress.


Not that I think Thomas requires an introduction but its laughable to compare his experience in IT and especially in computer languages, platforms etc.

Like many other in the Progress community that work with other databases and languages.


Still sounds to me like a frustrated Progress DBA who doesn't know much else coming here to vent.

And you're welcome to do so I certainly won't stop you but don't expect different responses.

 

[KnutHandsome]

These bozos in this forum who love Progress spend more time NOT answering questions, and do things like Thamas just did, which is basically tell you your not asking the right question, and try to make you feel stupid by doing a lot of talking, while not really answering what you asked.

Why do all the Oracle people who jump in this forum from time to time for no other reason than to slate Progress, and Progress developers have short acronyms as usernames, and seem wound up and entirely devoid of humour and perspective?

Are they all robots?

Seriously, I want to know, if I jump ship for the vastly superior Oracle platform, is there some sort of Borg deal going on, or do I still get to keep my personality?

 

[bboymarko]

TBH I agree with RHI

I was asking a specific question but then told i shouldn't ask it and im wrong. maybe I am but I think its worth trying to answer my question. Otherwise I would have asked the other question.

 

[tamhas]

Knowing what the right question to ask is often more important than the answer. Do you want the answer to your question as stated, even when it isn't really the question you should be asking or would you rather learn how to ask a more meaningful question that has a useful answer.

If I offer to sell you a car for $1 and unspecified low monthly payments, that sounds like a good deal until you find out that my idea of low monthly payments is $1000 a month for 10 years, in which case the car turns out to be pretty expensive and the $1 quite meaningless. The same is true of databases. The list price is almost meaningless over 5 years. It is particularly meaningless in the case of Oracle since they very often discount to get a sale, so who knows what the actual average sale price is. Progress tends not to do that. So, what do you learn by even comparing list price ... not to mention total cost of ownership over 5 years.

Did you try looking up the total cost of ownership study?

 

[joey.jeremiah]

Perfectly legitimate question.First its hard to consider the database alone. The database is part and used almost exclusively with in the platform.The language and platform is a domain specific language for building database centric business applications.I believe traditionally Progress has focused on the small to medium business for the embedded database application market.The database focus and strong points have beenDurability, low maintenance and mostly hands off; andStrong (some would say obsessive) focus on transaction processing and high volumes of transactions.In recent years theres been focus on enterprise customers and VLDB although it hasn't been without its growing pains.Without going over the whole recent feature list among some of the specifically database features are -Strong SQL support the SQL engine especially hasn't been without its growing pains. Theres also work on OLAP related features.Features aimed at 24x7 support and features for supporting, managing etc. high volumes of data.Replication and failover clusters support etc.I thnk thats as much as I can pitch in without any specific feature or capability questions. HTH

 

[joey.jeremiah]

What the heck ! is happening to the post formatting ?!Chris please help us sort this out. Thanks

 

[rhi]

rhi,

. . .

For one I can't remember a single time when you've ever been useful and answered any questions.

Here's something I hope you can find useful. If you learn a feature rich, true enterpise level system such as Oracle, you probably won't ever need to list "available for hire" under you're posts.

 

[tamhas]

Has it occurred to you that a consultant is always available for hire, no matter what database he or she works with?

 

[joey.jeremiah]

Another good example that shows how much of an expert you are. You already proved how much of bigger man you are, I guess they go together.Like I said I never heard you make a single knowledgeable remark, answered a question or even written a single SQL command.Even if you did recently take a course, read a book or winged it you have as much specialised expertise in Oracle and all the ins and outs as a college kid or less.It's not that I have a problem with you lashing out, because you may be going through a rough patch or what ? But do you have anything knowledgeable to say ?Well, happy journeys

 

[rhi]

Another good example that shows how much of an expert you are. You already proved how much of bigger man you are, I guess they go together.Like I said I never heard you make a single knowledgeable remark, answered a question or even written a single SQL command.Even if you did recently take a course, read a book or winged it you have as much specialised expertise in Oracle and all the ins and outs as a college kid or less.It's not that I have a problem with you lashing out, because you may be going through a rough patch or what ? But do you have anything knowledgeable to say ?Well, happy journeys

I think you are the one lashing out, sir. If you've read my previous posts, and are being honest about it, you'll see I have contributed, and asked for same from others. I tried to contribute to bboymarko, by discussing what he asked for, which is database comparisons, by posting a link to a PDF that compared Progress to Oracle, which was published by Progress - but they took it down. I further gave bboymarko my own opinion, which was formed slowly over time from my own experiences. And my experiences, just the clear things up for you since you seem to imply you think I have little - I've been in IT for 20+ years. My first exposure to Progress was as a programmer in 1990, on V6 for 8 years, then a Progress DBA, then an Oracle DBA. I still do and always have maintained that the 4GL (or ABL now, I guess) is a good language, but the Progress database SUCKS.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

Thank you Rhi,It's nice to finally talk to you. I don't think we're that bad I have lashed out once or twice but I've got nothing against the developers, dba's etc. the users.I do not think it's the best database and the language and platform are not without their weak points and their share of warts.But it can compare on most points with the other major databases and has many features you won't find in the medium and lower end.The database, the language and the platform has evolved according to their domain needs.It's not a general purpose language and database its domain specific language. Its a niche.The article you are talking about is pre OpenEdge (R10) probably early version 9 and I think over 7 years old.Alot of capabilites and longer term goals have matured since then. The database focus has changed towards the enterprise customers etc. Alot has happened since then.

 

[KnutHandsome]

Hi

I have been trying to look for Progress comparisons lately.How does progress 9.1D using the GUI compare to MSSQL2005 and Oracle with .NET front ends and Open edge 10. I am not interested in knowing that it is niche and the amount of jobs in it but technically. But issues of compatibility and strengths of databases and languages.

Any rough license cost would help for a company of about 100 people with 3 developers.


I know you would have to know the environment etc but any rough help would be appreicated.

Sorry I didn't post this earlier, but I have been a bit inactive online as late. It is I'm afraid, very rough.

For a more in depth analysis of your Progress needs, you could proceed further by asking questions on the more active and experienced Peg lists (www.peg.com), and speaking directly to Progress.

For competitive information, the situation is more difficult, as I'm sure you are aware - coming to any vendor specific forum is likely to get you partisan information. For a mix of views on SQL Server vs. Oracle try a general development/DBA list, eg. JoelOnSoftware. Just be aware Progress won't figure in the replies.

But see, eg.

http://www.progress.com/progress_software/about_us/analyst/docs/forrester_tei_casestudy_022806.pdf

You need to take it with a pinch of salt, as it is Progress sponsored (see disclosures at end).

Cost wise, I would imagine that an open source solution based around MySQL would be the cheapest option (excluding development costs), but I'm just guessing.

I'll assume you have considered the option of employing a preexisiting software solution, negating the need for in house developers.

Technically, OpenEdge 10 has moved further towards dropping the coupling of Progress client and Progress server, which RHI will be delighted about.

You can essentially develop your front ends in de facto industry standards .Net or Eclipse, and communicate via various options with your Progress backend, giving you a combination of the best front end tools and the best database language.

You can retain your native Progress front end tools as well, but 3rd party components are still limited to OCX - .Net component use is in the pipeline.

You can also of course have your Progress DB communicating with other backend resources via a more flexible range of options than before, but others will have to point you further.

If you want an SQL based solution, then for political reasons at least you should avoid Progress or any other minor player.

If you have in house Progress skills, it may well be cheaper in the medium term to create your App on that basis - but check out the web licensing on 10 if you may need to open access to the outside in the future (I'm not sure if this issue has been fixed yet).

There is always the dataserver option (4GL against Oracle/Sql database), but in your case you may just as well be using Progress.

Truth is for a small to medium environment like yours, particularly with in house Progress skills, 9.1 onwards + Appserver would suit your needs, Openedge would give you more flexibility in integrating with other services.

However if ABL/4GL is not an important factor in your decision, it is hard to argue against going with one of the big two or MySQL, as the entire world will understand you when you have a problem.

 

[KnutHandsome]

A summary of Progress/ABL via other dbs:

http://www.progresstalk.com/showthread.php?t=105018

Don't forget also the myriad of documents (and trial downloads) available via www.psdn.com, eg.

http://www.psdn.com/library/kbcategory.jspa?categoryID=1

 

[bboymarko]

Thanks Knut that is what i was looking for:awink: