ProgressTalk.com will always remain FREE to EVERYONE!

[Chris Kelleher]

In light of recent events, I just wanted to take the time to say that the forums here at ProgressTalk.com will always be free and open to anyone that wants to register for an account, and participate in reading and posting on the various discussions that we have here. I strongly believe in having free resources available to assist Progress developers with problems and issues that they may face.

I just wanted to comment on the recent developments at the Progress Email Group (PEG), and their decision to close off the community to only paid members. Any of you that subscribe to PEG received this email late last week:

At this time, all non-public PEG forums are closed to non-members.

We are in the process of actively unsubscribing non-members.

You can save us a great deal of time by unsubscribing yourself.

Of course, you may still become a member if you wish, but this is merely the same opportunity available for the past decade.

http://www.peg.com/jointoday.html <<== Real live working link.

--
Greg Higgins
PEG Manager

Now at this point it appears to just be another way to get more people to pay for memberships, as they actually aren't unsubscribing non-members (or at least haven't up to this point, as their membership numbers haven't gone down, as seen from here: http://www.peg.com/sub_dist.html )

However, they are blocking any new subscribers from joining, as subscribe requests are being ignored and replaced by this email responder:

Thank you for your interest in PEG; your subscription request has been deferred. Your e-mail address was not recognized as coming from a PEG Member; at this time, all non-public PEG forums are closed to non-members. Thus you need to become an individual member, or your employer needs to become a PEG corporate member, or I need to get an updated membership list.

http://www.peg.com/jointoday.html

PEG is the town square for the Progress community, we support over 4500 users everyday, and we believe we have proven our worth to companies large and small many times over the past 15 years.

We're currently seeking to improve our mentoring and training capabilities and enhance the lines of communications between developers through online conferences, panels and webinars.

Of course, all of this takes money and time. Our goal for the next year, in particular, and over coming years as necessary, is to
put forth the finest collaboration suite available for the exclusive use of our members.

We'd like to extend to Your Company <YOUR Company>this opportunity to become a PEG corporate member. As a corporate member all the Your Company <YOUR Company>IT staff would be able to participate in the PEG community without the need for individual memberships. As you may know, PEG is a user supported community; corporate memberships are new this year, it's something we haven't offered in the past.

Over the coming months we hope to be releasing software which allows corporate members to control PEG usage by their employees; for example, restricting subscriptions to forums deemed appropriate among various other capabilities.

If Your Company <YOUR Company>elect not to become a PEG Corporate Member, then you must become a PEG Individual member to participate in non-public PEG forums.

We look forward to you joining the PEG community.
--
Greg Higgins
PEG Manager

I think that this is a greedy move on their part in order to attempt to force more people to buy membership from them. I completely understand that running an Internet community costs money, as I have first hand experience with ProgressTalk.com. However, here subscriptions are completely optional (and always will be), and there are a few tangible benefits that I give to subscribers just as a way to say thank you. I also offset costs with advertising.

In closing, I would hope that any PEG subscribers that might not want to be forced into paying for "membership" can find ProgressTalk.com and feel comfortable and free to participate here!

 

[TomBascom]

You have neglected to account for Greg's time. In fact it is considerably more than a full time job for him.

You're also underestimating the infrastructure but why quibble?

 

[Chris Kelleher]

You have neglected to account for Greg's time. In fact it is considerably more than a full time job for him.

You're also underestimating the infrastructure but why quibble?

True, it is possible that I might be underestimating the hardware a bit, but there is still a large difference between PEG's income and expenses any way you cut it.

I don't have a problem with Greg making money for the time he spends on development and administration of the PEG... I know it can take a lot of time and effort. If Greg can generate revenue to keep PEG operating and to pay himself then that's great.

I do, however, have a problem with the way it is being done:

First off, to scare people into paying a membership by saying they'll be unsubscribed if they don't is wrong. Greg knows kicking off all non-members would be harmful to the PEG community, yet is threating this to increase membership numbers.

Secondly, there are promises being made of new features and services which people are being told is a benefit of membership now. I can remember when I first started paying to be a PEG member (it was the late 90's) and it was promised that we would have access to a searchable archive as the result... years went by without anything being done on this. The search feature was only implemented recently in the last couple of years, and probably only because this site had that capability.

Third, Greg is making it sound like PEG is costing him money and he is making it up by paying out of his own pocket:

RE: memberships

<!--X-Subject-Header-End--><!--X-Head-of-Message-->

• Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 13:55:05 -0600
• From: "Gregory Higgins" <Greg.Higgins@xxxxxxx>
• Subject: RE: memberships

<!--X-Head-of-Message-End--><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin--><HR><!--X-Head-Body-Sep-End--><!--X-Body-of-Message-->

> > I imagine Greg'll get fed up of picking up the difference

I'm not fed up; I'm eaten up. Resource challenged. Fiscally handicapped.
</PRE>

 

[TomBascom]

It is well known that the two of you strongly disagree on a number of issues.

I don't think that this is a debate that serves anyone so I'll not continue it beyond re-iterating that Greg is not exaggerating or making up his description of the financial situation. PEG is not a hobby, it is a full-time job for Greg and unless you factor in a reasonable salary and benefits into those numbers of yours they are very skewed (even without correcting the infrastructure assumptions).

 

[Lee Curzon]

Chris,

This is a great, user-friendly forum, and more power to you - your efforts are appreciated here, but the Peg is still the ultimate go-to resource outside PSDN.

Even if your estimates are correct, and Greg is making $43,200.00 a year for maintaining that service, this is well under what he could expect to make as a Progress consultant.

Following the logic, he is essentially losing money.

As for charging Peggers who don't pay already, well that's his choice. It's his baby. As much as these communities rely on their users, ultimately somebody has to put the time and effort in to administer the service, whether its you here or Greg there.

I love the idea of free products, when I'm buying, but ultimately someone has to chip in, otherwise these things disappear.

Lee

 

[joey.jeremiah]

i love everything about this place and alot of it has to do with chris's approach

i've got to subscribe to progresstalk. thanks for everything chris !

 

[abl]

I look at it differently; from my perspective I can see that of the 302,778 posts that Chris claims to have here at ProgressTalk, less than 20,000 originated from this site. This means that the other 280,000 posts must have been imported from PEG. One simple measure might cause one to conclude that a PEG membership was worth 14 times a ProgressTalk membership. Since a six month ProgressTalk membership is $15.00, six months of PEG must be worth $210. But PEG only charges $75.00 for a whole year. What a bargain! (And, since I hear that PEG actually has over 380,000 posts on tap, it's an even better bargain still!)

Chris,

This is a great, user-friendly forum, and more power to you - your efforts are appreciated here, but the Peg is still the ultimate go-to resource outside PSDN.

Even if your estimates are correct, and Greg is making $43,200.00 a year for maintaining that service, this is well under what he could expect to make as a Progress consultant.

Following the logic, he is essentially losing money.

As for charging Peggers who don't pay already, well that's his choice. It's his baby. As much as these communities rely on their users, ultimately somebody has to put the time and effort in to administer the service, whether its you here or Greg there.

I love the idea of free products, when I'm buying, but ultimately someone has to chip in, otherwise these things disappear.

Lee

 

[Lee Curzon]

Hello ABL,

Didn't expect to see you here

I think it's pretty clear to anyone who uses both sites that the Peg has considerably more activity (and much more expertise). This has been pointed out ad nauseum here in the past by various posters.

IMHO ProgressTalk is more relaxed and newbie-friendly and an easier forum to use, and that is where it has its own value. It's rather a pity the strengths of the two forums aren't combined - we (Progress developers) are a pretty small community after all.

Just to nitpick on your figures above, I'm assuming that the Peg posts Chris 'borrows' originated over a longer period than PT has been in existence, which would bring down the 14x figure a little, presumably the correct comparision would be posts per year.

However, your point that (information value wise) the Peg should cost more than PT is correct, but I took the initial post in this thread with a pinch of salt - whatever the arguments for the value of either forum, it seemed to be a classic "I'm doing it for the kids" land grab by Chris. But Free is great value.

I'm suprised you missed the chance to point out the $45 Peg membership offer which ends soon (tomorrow?). I was thinking of taking the offer up, but wasn't sure of whether the year would be added on to my existing subscription or not (due in a couple of months, I think), tightwad that I am.

Perhaps the Peg might consider reinstating the offer around Athens time.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

Hello ABL,

Didn't expect to see you here

are you sure it is ?

i just want to add that its not all about work. i dont do this because i need
to, i do it for fun

i'll be careful because i dont want to be disappreciative about anyones hard
work


for one i dont like that were taken for granted @peg

guys don't come to peg because of the site and maybe not even for greg,
its users are pegs biggest maybe its only asset

who am i to say but he should be careful with it


you also get the feeling that theres too many big egos and too little space

but maybe its a tight nitted community and i just dont get it. i also get
defensive real quick.

the thing that really did it for me was how disappreciative some guys were
about scott auge contributions

scott has almost disappeared from peg. from what i've heard it was a
similar case with john campbell and dan foreman


i'm just one guy but i certainly didn't feel welcome @peg

finally i think they should stop forcing it down our throat as if we have to
join peg, it only has the opposite effect

 

[Lee Curzon]

I was thinking of taking the offer up, but wasn't sure of whether the year would be added on to my existing subscription or not (due in a couple of months, I think), tightwad that I am.

Ok, I've just checked my subscription from last year, and it has a renewal price already (lower than $45!). I sent peg a clarification request, but I understand it now.

 

[Lee Curzon]

are you sure it is ?

Yep. Apart from the ABLSaurus being a rare, reclusive beast, I recognised the sense of humour from his other post.

you also get the feeling that theres too many big egos and too little space

I think that's true of most Tech forums. It's kind of a cliche, but advanced social skills are not always a prerequsite of your average Techie.

There is a bit of pomposity/preening on the Peg, but I suspect it would happen here as well if the guru count was higher. I tend to measure everyone on the Peg against George Potemkin who is at once fantastically knowledgable, and completely diplomatic and without ego in his posts.

When a poster starts puffing up, I read the content, and if it matches the self-evaluation, I don't worry about it. If it doesn't, and they do it regularly, I tend to skip their contributions.

the thing that really did it for me was how disappreciative some guys were about scott auge contributions

Yeah, I found that annoying as well, although his Laptop expenses claim was a bit amusing.

i'm just one guy but i certainly didn't feel welcome @peg

To be fair though, you did go in all guns blazing

finally i think they should stop forcing it down our throat as if we have to join peg, it only has the opposite effect

I don't think that has happened much till recently. There is the occasional holier-than-thou post from Peggers which links to the membership form, but I think Greg is right to be exasperated. There is no excuse for employed people in the developed nations not to be contributing financially if they use the forum regularly.

The same goes for ProgressTalkers though, regardless of Mother Schreiber's angelic charity work.

These sites cost money and time, and save you money and time. Help out, whydontcha?

 

[joey.jeremiah]

hi Lee,

how are you

Yeah, I found that annoying as well, although his Laptop expenses claim was a bit amusing.

i think, scott is one of the most interesting and valuable contributors to the
community

i dont know, maybe he was looking for recognition for all the time he's spent
and the material he's put out there

if anyone deserves it its him

These sites cost money and time, and save you money and time. Help out, whydontcha?

thats the point.

they dont save me money or time and i dont get work out of them

i do this because i like talking shop with you guys, blow off some steam etc.
feels like a support group

and i get a kick if i can help someone out


you're right. i've been putting it off for too long and i'll get it sorted out.

hey, i'm the last guy to blame anyone for trying to make money.
i certainly dont work for free

but i still dont believe everyone needs to pay and if they did this
would be a very diff place


eventually the responsible long standing members of the community become
dues paying members

not everyone of those die hard members became one right off the bat,
it usually took them a few years

and most likely some of them wouldn't have bothered if it was

 

[Lee Curzon]

you're right. i've been putting it off for too long and i'll get it sorted out.

I meant the general 'you', although I wasn't excluding you from the suggestion.

 

[Lee Curzon]

Joey,

thats the point.

they dont save me money or time and i dont get work out of them

i do this because i like talking shop with you guys, blow off some steam etc.
feels like a support group

and i get a kick if i can help someone out

hey, i'm the last guy to blame anyone for trying to make money.
i certainly dont work for free

but i still dont believe everyone needs to pay and if they did this
would be a very diff place

As you know, I feel pretty much the same about the 'hanging out' aspect of the site, but I am fully aware also I have improved a huge amount as a programmer since I started trying to help others out about a year ago.

It's not about 'answers' with these forums for me, since most of the information requested is normally documented somewhere or can be derived by experimentation, but about building my armoury.

Frankly, 100-odd dollars a year for the increased abilities and confidence I have found contributing to and following the threads here and at the Peg is laughably small, and that's how I place a value on it.

 

[abl]

I agree, and so do many PEGGERs. That's one reason why Scott was one of the finalists for the 2006 PEGGER of the Year award.

i think, scott is one of the most interesting and valuable contributors to the
community

 

[abl]

IMHO ProgressTalk is more relaxed and newbie-friendly and an easier forum to use, and that is where it has its own value.

I'd dispute that. I think PEG is very newbie friendly.

Just to nitpick on your figures above, I'm assuming that the Peg posts Chris 'borrows' originated over a longer period than PT has been in existence

No, I think they're roughly the same.

 

[abl]

scott has almost disappeared from peg. from what i've heard it was a
similar case with john campbell and dan foreman

This is just untrue. Scott is busy working on things. I was talking to him a few weeks ago. As for John Campbell and Dan Foreman, I don't know what anyone told you, but John has his own thing called Progressions. He comes on PEG when it suits him. Likewise Dan. He's one of Bravepoint's top consultants. The relationship between Bravepoint and PEG has always been close. Scott Dulecki, 2006 PEGGER of the Year is a Bravepoint product manager and Bravepoint was PEG's first corporate client.

 

[Lee Curzon]

I'd dispute that. I think PEG is very newbie friendly.

I also think the Peg is newbie friendly, in that Peggers are usually polite to people who are still finding their way (and of course they are not allowed to be abusive anyway).

What I mean is that there is such authority on the Peg, that it can be a little intimidating or overwhelming for newcomers who might be interested in joining the community, rather than simply asking a technical question once in a blue moon.

The atmosphere on this site is (I believe) a little more relaxed for several reasons.

There's less activity, so a poster's voice is unlikely to get lost in the noise.

There isn't such a need to impress, as the contributors here tend to range from the wacky to the intelligent professional, with the occasional visit by an expert like Tom. Guru posts tend to be rare, and 'hard' questions often get redirected to the Peg.

Of course, these are PT negatives, but they perversely add up to a relaxed environment to 'hang out' in, with a less formal air than the Peg.

The most obvious reason though, is that it has a standard web forum interface that is easy to use, and familiar to anyone who uses the web regularly. I just click the site, and click a button to post.

With the Peg, I have to sign out of my personal gmail account, sign into my Progress gmail account (login/password), before I can post. That's after I have subscribed to the forums.

Of course, that is partly a shortcoming of my system, but as long as my company inflicts Scrotus Bloats on me, I'll be using web mail from the office.

I'm just saying the Peg interface is not as straightforward as the PT interface. Some people like it that way, but I think newbies are more likely to be a little confused.